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Like Dan, I have added the "zero" PID to numerous sets. Over the last year or so I have been adding vintage tobacco, trade cards, and candy/gum sets; specifically non-sport.  Many of those sets have card subjects that do not meet the current criteria for an individual PID. 

At first, I agreed with following the PID guidelines and I felt I was doing the right thing by zeroing out the PID. But after seeing the same subjects occur in multiple sets over and over again, I'm starting to feel that we are doing a disservice to the non-sport community by not broadening our PID definition/criteria.

As Dan mentioned a PID is a "Person ID"....and elephants are not people. However, I think the PID intent can be broadened to include such things as animals, birds, planes, cars, etc. 

Sets containing animals and birds are the first that come to mind. I do think that animals should have a way of identifying / grouping them. As randfordfan pointed out, there might be collectors out there that would like to collect cards with specific subject matter that currently don't meet PID guidelines. Using Randfordfan's elephants as an example, here are some elephant cards that highlight some of the problems I see arising.

The first two cards are easy. "Elephant" is clear subject of the card and "Elephant" is the card title. These cards would clearly fall under and "Elephant" PID

• 1888 Allen & Ginter Wild Animals of the World (N25): Elephant
• 1890 Allen & Ginter Quadrupeds (N41): Elephant

This next card also has an "Elephant" as the subject matter, but has a specific species of elephant as the card title. Would this fall under an "Elephant" PID or does the "Asiatic Elephant" get its own PID? For the science minded.....genus vs species is a reoccuring issue in the nature sets that I've been working on.

1898 John Dwight & Co. Interesting Animals (J10): #34 Asiatic Elephant

To make matters more confusing, this next card has an elephant as part of the subject and elephant is in the card title. However, I would argue that the subject and title have more to do with a carriage than an elephant and would not fall under an "Elephant" PID. This is where a "subject tag" might be useful. Randforfan might want this card in his "Elephant" collection eventhough "Elephant" is not the true subject.

1888 W. Duke, Sons & Co. Vehicles of the World (N90): Elephant Carriage India

I think we should use the PID functionality of TCDB to classify sets that have clear card title and subject matter even if they are not a "Person". This functionality already exists and is already being practiced. We already have an "Elephant" PID. Wouldn't it be better to establish community standards than to have members continue to create and add cards to "rogue" PIDs?

Subject "tagging" would be a great addition to the database. I don't envy the job of deciding what subjects get tags and establishing that functionality into the database. 

This is a great topic and discussion. I hope it continues.

I'll throw my two cents in here at this time too. I like the tagging option much more than the PID. If I can tag a certain card with some different subjects, then that could be beneficial to those who collect them.

Examples that I can think of are those who have mini-collections of baseball cards showing a shot in the dugout, those who have collections of (I believe the recent football one was) Dolphins appearing on other football cards, and even the elephant examples mentioned above. 

However, I also see a lot of work in implementing this. No, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we have so much else to do. A lot of great, intuitive ideas have come up lately - address books, chat rooms, this - and it's absolutely fantastic. I love it; we are thinking and growing and trying to make this site better. But it makes more sense to me to figure out the PIDs still needing verification, as well as the TIDs, and the numbering issues, and the scans missing, and missing birthdates and so on and so forth before we open up another can of worms.

One last thought - to expand on my last point - I know that we will probably never have every single set verified, locked up, no pending PIDs/TIDs/number issues etc. Rather, I suggest that we get them to a more managable number before launching into a new task. Ultimately, I will defer to the group and Admin in general - as much as the forums are a democracy, the Admin still makes final decisions and holds ultimate ruling, so what they say, goes.

I would say that all Elephants would go under one PID. The tagging system could then be used to tag out the genus, so if somebody only wants to see Asiatic elephants, they could go to the Elephant pid, find any of the Asiatic elephants listed, and click on it, which would bring up the tag of Asiatic Elephant underneath the photo. Clicking on that would then show them only those tagged as Asiatic.

Another thing that could be done- but would really only work using the one PID I favor- would have the elephant be the PID, and then add the various genus as alternate names. so they would all (eventually) connect to the one PID without having to mess with the names.

I'm going to share a small complaint that I have with the TCDB community. I hope I can do it in a way that does not offend anyone because that is not my intent. TCDB is the best collection management tool and has the best trading community anywhere....hands down. The hobby would not be the same for me without this site and this community of collectors.

However, there is a tendancy on this site to view collecting in terms of modern sports cards (and if I am completely truthful, baseball specifically). I understand this; sports cards / baseball dominate the modern hobby (at least in the USA). But there are those of us whose collecting focus is non-sport and IMHO we (TCDB community) don't do a good job of addressing non-sport issues.

As a non-sport guy I might want to collect cards with elephants or wolverines. I might be a huge fan of the Curtis P-37 airplane or Chevy Camaros. I might not want baseball cards that have a squirel in them but just cards where squirels are the SUBJECT of the card. This is where the expansion of the PID criteria would be valuable. 

The PID system is already in place and it works. In fact most animals already have a PID despite the efforts of those of us who spend time "zeroing out" the cards that should not have PIDs based on current guidlines (I "zero out" PIDs when I come across them). What is the harm in making these PIDs legit?

• Wolverine (animal)
• Flying Squirrel

It would take a lot of work to change all the "Zero" PIDs but it would not be an Admin function; it would be a member function. I would be more than willing to go back and undo all the "Zero" PIDs that I have done. I would also be happy to review every non-sport set and update PIDs. Heck, I am constantly adding / editing vintage non-sport anyway. It's what I do.

For me, non-sport cards are not an interesting side-note to my baseball card collection. They are my collection. It would be awesome if there was the same search / sort functionality to the SUBJECT of a non-sports card as there is to a specific player / person. I personally use "Lists" for this functionality. It works for me but it means that I have to go out and find a card myself and I'm sure I'm missing many potential cards because I don't have knowledge of a set that contains the subject I am looking for. 

What if you wanted to start collecting cards where Ozzie Smith was the SUBJECT and TCDB did not have the functionality to search by name?

Tagging cards is an interesting idea, but it is not the same thing. If I was interested in baseball cards with squirrels in them, this would be a great way to find them. I'm guessing that this functionality would have to written into the database "code" somehow. It would be a new feature and would require Admin involvement. A much different animal.

If I offended anyone or came across as disrespectful, I apologize. This is a great community and I have total respect for all the various styles of collecting that exist. I'm just trying to advocate for the non-sport collectors like myself. If I came across as being overly negative or critical of this site or its members, its only because of my inability to put together a coherant forum posting.

BTW...I haven't not validated names on any of the non-sports sets that I've worked on because many of the vintage sets are a work-in-progress. Many new discoveries are made for pre-war sets. Cards are discovered, variations found, names changed...etc. Locking the sets seems to be a needless step. Whose to say the G-men & Heroes of the Law set is perfect when even the "experts" disagree on what should be included in the set?

Jason brings up several great points, and the one about cleaning up what we already have to clean up is one I've beaten to death over the years. :) That's one reason I have stopped mentioning it. I still firmly believe it.

Another thing that he brought up that is worth repeating is regarding the direction from Admin that is current. As Chad mentioned about rogue PIDs, which I had been removing, based purely on the direction given by Admin. Chad also got into a great topic regarding what do use for a PID when these card subjects have so many different names.

Back to Jason's point:

Sets listed but missing the checklist: 6,572
PIDs missing DOBs (or not being set to N for non-fictional human): 48,217
Sets needing Names to be validated (PIDs added?): 13,918
Sets needing Teams validated (teams being assigned?): 36,402
Sets needing Notes validated: 174,400
Sets needing Card Numbering validated: 171,022
Sets needing ultimate validation (lock down): 173,144

That's a lot of work for stuff that's already here. 

You're spot on, Chad.

I was trying to keep my idea to myself for now, but this is my idea I mentioned earlier in this thread, that I want to put forth to Admin.

As you may know, cars are my true passion, not cards. There are thousands of automotive themed cards, but they are all unlinked to each other. My proposal is to create a PID for each car company, so then I could not only scroll through and look at what's out there, but I could also see where the car companies rank in my collection.

So, for an example, if I were to click on the PID for Ford, I would be able to see all cards showing a Ford, be it in an automotive set, or in a sports set.

I suggest doing the PIDs for automotive brands rather than specific models, because model names in the automotive industry rarely last for a long time, with a couple of exceptions. Doing it for the brand rather than a specific model would also cover the entire history of the brand, and of automotive trading cards, instead of just one specific model. Even Chevrolet's famed Bel Air only lasted as a model year for about 15 years. Car brands/companies, however, can last for generations, with several in existence for more than 100 years.

I would also suggest that race cars would NOT be tagged to the car brand, as they are already tagged to the driver of the car- and most race cars are hand built racing specific vehicles, not based off production cars. Pace cars, however, would be tagged to the PID of the automaker.

Now, this would require a lot of work. I'm volunteering to do it all, because, as I stated, it's my passion. It would take time, probably several months, to accomplish it, but there are very few automotive themed issues anymore so maintaining it going forward would be rather easy, and I would do that as well.

It would also require a small bit of debate- for instance, the Bon Air Fire Engine sets. While they are fairly straghtforward, there are a couple of custom built rigs that combine two brands on one chassis- which PID would they go to? Both?

This would be beneficial to the automotive card collectors- it's not just me!- as besides helping in tracking the collection, it would also be helpful in findout out what exists. I discovered the car cards existed in the linked football set totally by accident- and I want them all. I had absolutely no idea they existed. I know there are car cards in several baseball sets as well, which I also stumbled upon by accident. If there were PIDs for the car brands, I would have found them long ago- perhaps even 5 years ago, that I could have been looking for, collecting, and scanning for the Database if I had found them.

What are your thoughts? May I have permission to do this?

Counterpoint to that: There are some things I can't do because I don't know them. I have a lot of checklists I'd love to get posted- but I cannot figure out what they are. I know what I personally have, but that's just not good enough to post a checklist. Those unchecklisted cards I have are over 200 cards now, and probably at least 150 checklists.  And these are things I know a lot about, like NBA, NASCAR, automotive subjects, and I can't do it.

I've entered all the DOBs and hometowns of the NASCAR drivers I could find. (I also selected an appropriate sample photo, when available) I could not find any place that had that information for the drag racers, other forms of racing, even some of the people in NASCAR. Those who had cards scanned that showed it, I pulled it off that. There were still thousands I was not able to find. (One of those drag racers was killed this past weekend; I could not find his birthdate. Somebody else did. I have no idea who found it or where they found it)

I have absolutely no idea how to even go about validating a note or a card number.

You know my thoughts on locking sets, and why I will never do that.

The names and teams, I work on when I can. As do others. It's a work in progress. Again, though, there are things I don't know. I can do all the teams in the NBA and NASCAR, with enough time. I am going to get there for the NHL at some point, but I'm not there yet. If I attempted to add teams in baseball, football, soccer or other sports, I would surely make more of a mess than make things better, so I don't. I also don't know enough about IndyCar, F1, NHRA, etc. to add all the teams there. I can get some of it off Wikipedia and Racing-Reference but not all.

If there were PIDs for these other subjects, they could be linked and verified that much quicker, no?

that can also actually be done by some type of old dewey decimal system.. 1000 series= animals, 2000= plants , 3000 series = travel.. etc etc.. either way, a huge undertaking regardless and yes .. plenty to fix as it is

I started looking at the birthday information, et al. 

One issue I realized immediately is that for some players (such as Eufemio Abrieu) the closest we're ever going to get is c. 1901.  Is there a way to handle this? Or does it get left forever as "needs birthday".

(sorry new guy here with stupid new guy questions.)