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Young Kilo
Posts: 118
Joined: Mar 2012
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| Monday, November 22, 2021 9:47 PM | |
It's a damn tragedy that Bonds and Clemens are not already in the HOF. Both should have gone in on their first attempt. I'm hoping both of them along with Rodriguez make it in this year.
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RonEaston
Posts: 976
Joined: Nov 2019
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| Monday, November 22, 2021 11:21 PM | |
Thats not a tragedy...tragedy is when the feelings gone and you cant go on...
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I'm mostly organizing over adding right now.
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spazmatastic
Posts: 5,877
Joined: Dec 2014
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 1:01 AM | |
If I was casting a voting ballot, I would only vote for Rolen and Vizquel this year. There are a LOT of Very Good players on the 1st-time ballot this year, but most of them were only very good for a short span or had short careers due to injury. I'd say the Top-2 in that list are Ortiz and Tex. If you completely eliminate the PED issue, I would add Ramirez, Sosa and Bonds. BUT, McGwire would have to go in first and he's only on the Veteran's Committee list now. Until McGwire gets in the Hall, none of the known PED guys gets in. I think Clemens would have gotten in a long time ago if he'd have just confessed to using them to come back from injury faster. If he hadn't lied about it to the media and then directly in front of Congress, he'd be in already.
Might get inducted in the future: Jones, Helton, Peavy. JMO.
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NO PWE's EVER!!! PLZ PM me 1st before sending a trade or buy offer. _______________________________________________________________________ Largest total PC card collections by Team, then Athlete (as of 3/31/23): STL Cardinals (MLB) - 8700+; Carolina Panthers - 2800+; GB Packers - 1700+ cards Mark Martin (NASCAR) - 2034 cards; Jimmie Johnson (NASCAR) - 1776+ cards; Jeff Gordon (NASCAR) - 1563; Ricky Rudd (NASCAR) - 828; Ozzie Smith (MLB) - 692+
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trauty
Posts: 228
Joined: Nov 2016
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 1:06 AM | |
McGwire wouldn't have sniffed the hall of fame without steroids. Bonds & Clemens would be first ballot guys if they'd stayed away from peds.
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spazmatastic
Posts: 5,877
Joined: Dec 2014
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 3:14 AM | |
I have to 100% disagree about Bonds AND BigMac! Barry Bonds would have never gotten close to the HOF without PEDS. Look at him in 1991 cards and he was built like me now (5'10" 160lbs.). Look at him in cards 5 years later and he's built like an action movie star! Bonds would have never gotten close to the stats he achieved without steroids!!! McGwire was huge when he started in the MLB, but he got slightly bigger and stronger when he started the steroids. McGwire was a slugging machine when he first got to the MLB, but it doesn't help him that he was a teammate to Canseco. However, the McGwire/Sosa/Bonds batting era of the late 90's and early 2000's was really exciting. It brought a ton of new viewers into MLB. On the down side, it also drove away a ton of viewers when it turned out that all of those players were using steroids. Those guys all eventually get into the Hall, but not now. I think we are a few more years away from the PED guys getting into the Hall, but it still has to start with Canseco or McGwire.
As for Clemens, I'm about 60/40 on that. Before the PEDs, he was a HOFer to me. His stats after he started using clearly locked him into Hall quality stats but the steriods dropped him back out. Clemens used because he wanted to best Nolan Ryan and longevity was required to do that. It didn't work out in the long run, but I still think Clemens was one of the best pitchers of all time.
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NO PWE's EVER!!! PLZ PM me 1st before sending a trade or buy offer. _______________________________________________________________________ Largest total PC card collections by Team, then Athlete (as of 3/31/23): STL Cardinals (MLB) - 8700+; Carolina Panthers - 2800+; GB Packers - 1700+ cards Mark Martin (NASCAR) - 2034 cards; Jimmie Johnson (NASCAR) - 1776+ cards; Jeff Gordon (NASCAR) - 1563; Ricky Rudd (NASCAR) - 828; Ozzie Smith (MLB) - 692+
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Pinkpony1967
Posts: 304
Joined: Jan 2021
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 4:18 AM | |
Thing is Had Clemens NOT used PED's he's probably in HOF already just from the Boston years BEFORE he was using
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sandyrusty
Posts: 4,522
Joined: Dec 2014
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 4:47 AM | |
Might be easier to build a new wing and move those who have good morale and ethics into it.
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Bruno -------- Check my Profile page to see my 2023 Goals and my Lists of sets near completion (5 cards or less) or sets getting close (less than 100 cards missing and 75% complete). https://www.tcdb.com/Forum.cfm/Page/B/ID/0/?MODE=VIEW&ThreadID=25745&C=0
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chvlDm
Posts: 268
Joined: Apr 2012
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 4:49 AM | |
As far as Bonds growing goes, look at Bagwell. Look at his early 90's cards vs late 90s. Apparently that growth was legit according to the HOF. So maybe we have to be open to considering possibly some, but not all of Bonds' growth legit.
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Unfortunately, no more PWE trades for me. Just doing bubble mailer 75+ card trades.
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TwinKiller
Posts: 1,005
Joined: Jul 2021
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 7:11 AM | |
We could and quite honestly will go on and on discussing who should and shouldn't go in to the hall due to PED usage. I do agree that McGwire is going to be opening of the gate of all the, "users." Now Clemens, I also agree that if you removed his stupid decision to lie to congress about it, he might have also gotten in quicker than the others. And then you have Canseco. He admitted it, and wrote a great book on it that helped young athletes avoid it, (even though you have the occasional usage found once a year. Thanks Hector Santiago.) And finally, Bonds. Does he have to a round ball with a round bat? Yes. Does he have to hit it in the right spot with enough power to make it travel 400 ft? Yes. Does he deserve to be in the HoF? Not quite. Once they make the whole lap around all the players in discussion, they might revisit him in the veterans committee in 20 so years and just even THINK about it. I personally don't think he would be what he was without PED usage. He looked like a twig in his 1987 baseball card and in 2001 like a log. And then, just for some added thoughts, Pete. Rose. Me personally again, when all of this Draft Kings, Fan Duel garbage sweeps through the U.S. then becomes legal in a majority of the states, he might be in discussion. He was basically doing what we Americans are now except that there was no Draft Kings in 1987. It is all so confusing to me. Once all the writers are from some other generation, they might rethink this entire thing. That is my detailed explanation on all of this.
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Thanks - TwinKiller. (Luke)
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mkb
Posts: 379
Joined: Sep 2018
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| Tuesday, November 23, 2021 7:55 AM | |
Honestly I think Bonds deserves it, I despise cheating very much but in a way Bonds has two HOF careers. One with PEDs and one without them.
His numbers became so good in 1990 and he just kept going. 3 MVPs just before using PEDs ('90, '92 & '93)
And of course we know about his stats from '98 and onward.
But I think Bonds even without steroids would be worthy of the hall. He wouldn't break the home run record, but his stats would still be incredible. He could get on base so much because he hit for average and had amazing discipline and the glove too.
And I think Clemens deserves it too. Winning MVP in '86 and the Cy Young at least 3 times before cheating ('86, '87 & '91, unsure about '97)
But that's just my opinion
Edited on: Nov 23, 2021 - 7:59AM -------------------------------
Been hooked on collecting since 2011. Sports & Video Game Nerd Pretty good Ori, Kragg and Mollo player in Rivals of Aether. Average Mario and Puff player in Super Smash Bros. Melee. Slippi Code: MK#636 Play OneShot
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